As long as the majority of the topics and replies seem to be about religion these days and not drywall or plaster, I thought I would ask a few questions:

It is now 2010 years since the birth of Christ. The majority of human beings on the planet read, attend school, and many are scholars with a greater understanding of the physical world than ever before.

We have discovered many of the secrets of Physics, Geology, Astronomy, Biology and Medicine. But even our greatest minds confess we have just scratched the surface of what is yet to be known about the Universe, but we are making progress.

95% of modern religions were formed around or well before the time of Christ, 2010+ years ago. Few have changed their doctrine significantly since their original formation.

Q1: If scientists can alter their concept of "truth" as they grow in knowledge and experience, why can't religions? Is their faith so solidified that they cannot accept even the concept that they may have it wrong, even slightly?

Q2: They all can't be right, or can they?

Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/28/2010 at 1:09 PM

Q1 Mine is not Bill,we reconize we are imperfect.Im constantly ajusting and reajusting.Q2 no,no they cant be.

“The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”—PROVERBS 4:18.
Matthew 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son(Jesus), but only the Father(Jehovah)."even Jesus had to learn new things"
Two releases this year.The origin of life.Five questions worth asking.Very scientific Bill.Deals a lot with DNA,RNA.Example:"One gram of DNA carries as mutch information as a trillion CD's could"(Fact! DNA's capacity to store information still has no equal in today's computer age)Fact! Science has proved,it imposible for the universe being created in 144 hours just a few thousand years ago.

The other is also very scientific: Was life Created? Example:Copying the seagull's leg.A seagull does not freeze even while standing in ice.Part of it is the feature found in animals living in cold regions,called countertcurrent heat exchanger.http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471584673.html
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/28/2010 at 2:56 PM

Som e of this is on my destop.According to the Bible Jesus created it at Jehovah's direction billions of years ago.Sorce of how long comes from science,and as far as now they dont know how vast,or its age,may never know.(<:


John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word(later know as Christ Jesus) was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/28/2010 at 3:16 PM

Bill,
I guess I’ll give a go at your two rather difficult questions. But I doubt I can do them any justice in such a short forum as this.

They go back as far as time I would imagine.
In fact you may remember Pilate asked “What is truth?” of Christ just before he had him crucified.

The thing is, I don’t think you would want “truth” to change over time, knowledge, or experience.

“Truth” has to do with 2+2=4. It will always be 4.
And you wouldn’t want your banker to tell you that over time, knowledge or experience that 2+2 has become 3.

So the first thing a person has to decide is, what is “truth”.

Jesus said in Jhn 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”

Be sure to read that carefully.

You first have to decide if that statement by Christ is true, because it automatically limits the answer to the second question.

Around the time the Bible says that, Christ spoke those words, man thought the world was flat.

I am not suggesting that knowledge and experience changes truth, but rather it may shed light on our understanding of a broader, deeper truth - one we may have misinterpreted previously.

Francis Collins:
No one knows better than Dr. Francis Collins how easy it might be for scientists to play God. As the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute since 1993 — what some call the most prestigious job in science — Collins has led the effort to decode human DNA, along the way developing a revolutionary method of screening genes for disease.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html
RECONCILING Science and Religion: http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020608/article_01.htm
"Science and religion [are] no longer seen as incompatible."— The Daily Telegraph, London
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion," says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."

Did you know this about the Bible Bill?
Isaiah 40:22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,
"You can put your trust in the Bible is that when it comes to scientific matters, what this ancient book states is accurate. For example, at a time when most people believed that the earth was flat, the Bible spoke of “the circle [or, sphere] of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22) And over 3,000 years before the famous scientist Sir Isaac Newton explained that the planets are held in empty space by gravity, the Bible poetically stated that ‘the earth is hanging upon nothing.’ (Job 26:7) Consider also this poetic description of the earth’s water cycle, recorded some 3,000 years ago: “All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again.” (Ecclesiastes 1:7, New International Version) Yes, the Creator of the universe is also the Author of the Bible."
(Although the writing of the Bible was completed more than 1,900 years ago, its contents intrigue men and women of modern times. For instance, open your Bible to Job 26:7. Keep in mind that this text was written in the 15th century B.C.E.)

Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/28/2010 at 7:57 PM

Bill,
Some men may have believed the world was flat at that time, but the scripture said at that time, and still does, that the world was round.
Isa 40:22 “It is God who sits above the circle of the earth. The people below must seem to him like grasshoppers! He is the one who spreads out the heavens like a curtain and makes his tent from them.”NLT

That is the importance of “truth”, and that scripture not be allowed to “adjust” to the worldview of the day.


What you have to decide is, has knowledge and experience shed light on your understanding of what Jesus said in Jhn 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”,
or did He say it at all.

If you determine that what Jesus said is “truth”, it will be a game changer to you.

How do you best determine whether or not what Christ said was truth?

Believe me, it is not my intent to challenge anyone's beliefs, I am trying to understand why, and what good there is in, religions denouncing one another for different interpretations or beliefs in God.

The Book of Isaiah reference is a good one to discuss. The verse reads "circle not "sphere". A matter of semantics that very well could have contributed to man believing the world was a flat circle, or it could have been a man-made interpretation of the thinking at the time.

If everything attributed to Jesus in the New Testament is empirically "true" then why is there so much debate among "christian" organizations over the interpretation of His word, let alone disbelief of the wise and equally faithful scholars of Judaism?


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/28/2010 at 8:52 PM

Bill,
I understand it’s not your intent to challenge anyone's beliefs.
And I don’t mean to denounce another’s beliefs, but to add perspective to the mix.

The amazing thing that makes the Bible unique is that each word can be referenced back to its original Hebrew (OldT) or Greek (NewT) word in the original language it was written in.
That way we can know what the reader at the time understood the meaning of the words used were to be.

In the case of the word "sphere" in Isa 40:22 it is the Hebrew word “chuwg” (Strong's H2329 ).m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky,
Strong's Number H2329 matches the Hebrew çåÌâ (chuwg), which occurs 3 times in 3 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Job 22:14 Thick clouds5645 [are] a covering5643 to him, that he seeth7200 not; and he walketh1980 in the circuit2329 of heaven8064.

Prov 8:27 When he prepared3559 the heavens8064, I [was] there: when he set2710 a compass2329 upon the face6440 of the depth8415:

Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth3427 upon the circle2329 of the earth776, and the inhabitants3427 thereof [are] as grasshoppers2284; that stretcheth out5186 the heavens8064 as a curtain1852, and spreadeth them out4969 as a tent168 to dwell in3427 :



Each number after a word can be traced to its original Hebrew or Greek letters, found in numerous surviving texts of antiquity.

Here’s a link to how you can look these things up for yourself if you’re interested.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2329&t=KJV

As to why there is there so much debate among "Christian" organizations over the interpretation of His word.

Bill, mankind has an overriding and compelling desire to do something to gain the “favor” or his “forgiveness” from “God” for the wrongs he knows he has done.

“Religion” has a tendency to slightly (or completely) twist scripture to allow man to “do something” to gain the “forgiveness” and the acceptance that man feels like he must “earn”.

But the truth is that Christ said that forgiveness was His free gift to all who would receive it.

Modified By steve mathews on 7/28/2010 at 9:52 PM

(Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here translated “circle,” may also be rendered “sphere.”3 Other Bible translations read, “the globe of the earth” (Douay Version) and “the round earth.”—Moffatt.
As early as the sixth century B.C.E., Greek philosopher Pythagoras theorized that since the moon and the sun are spherical, the earth must also be a sphere. Aristotle (fourth century B.C.E.) later agreed, explaining that the sphericity of the earth is proved by lunar eclipses. The earth’s shadow on the moon is curved.

Dragline silk is the fiber from which spiders make the scaffolding of their webs. It has been estimated by scientists to be at least five times as strong as steel, twice as elastic as nylon, waterproof and stretchable.
"Dragline spider silk is actually stronger than Kevlar synthetic fiber- and Kevlar is several times stronger than steel,"
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/spider.php

Monarch butterflies are the only insect that migrates to a warmer climate that is 2,500 miles away each year.With a brain the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen.
http://www.monarch-butterfly.com/

A dragonfly’s eyes have 30,000 lenses and can see 360 degrees.
http://www.bestfunfacts.com/dragonflies.html
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/28/2010 at 9:54 PM

I realize my understanding of Christianity may be a little unusual to some.
If you would like to see one place I gain my perspective of Christ’s teachings you could watch a past episode from my pastor Robert Morris.
He does an interview with Jason Witan about halfway through this message.
Robert has an exceptional ability to illuminate a subject like few I’ve ever heard.

Just click “see” on the episode “Have You Been Born Again?” - Robert Morris

He also does an interview with Josh Hamilton for the whole episode of “What Saves You?” if you’re interested.
Very compelling story of his life as a ballplayer. Just click “see”

http://gatewaypeople.com/index.php?action=res_series_details&sid=186

True religion should do all these things shouldnt they?
Six features that identify those who practice true religion:God’s servants base their teachings on the Bible 2 Timothy 3:16,17, Those who practice the true religion worship only Jehovah and make his name known: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matthew 4:10),God’s people show genuine, unselfish love for one another. Jesus said: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:35),True Christians accept Jesus Christ as God’s means of salvation. The Bible says: “There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” (Acts 4:12,True worshipers are no part of the world. When on trial before the Roman ruler Pilate, Jesus said: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” (John 18:36) No matter what country they live in, Jesus’ true followers are subjects of his heavenly Kingdom and thus maintain strict neutrality in the world’s political affairs.,Jesus’ true followers preach that God’s Kingdom is mankind’s only hope. Jesus foretold: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) Instead of encouraging people to look to human rulers to solve their problems, true followers of Jesus Christ proclaim God’s heavenly Kingdom as the only hope for mankind.
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/29/2010 at 4:42 AM

Clyde,

If I am understanding your point correctly, a "true believer" in Christ should NOT involve themselves in politics (i.e., "strict neutrality")?!? How does that wash with the political activism found linked with many christian organizations today, or that so many "christians" are political activists themselves?

Steve,

On the run this morning and don't have the time to give your references the time they deserve; will check back when I can.

But a point to help understand my questioning. I recently listened as a very intelligent, christian women spoke about her church's disagreement with another over the way a person should be Baptized. She said her church's position did not believe that a baby should be Baptized nor would just sprinkling water on a forehead suffice. She was quite adamant in her belief and quite critical of beliefs that differ with hers. As I suppose this could be considered a matter of salvation by some, a point I felt was silly to discuss actually brought on very significant consequences to those with a particular belief grounded in their particular church's theology. Both religions believe the way to salvation is through Christ, so why should it matter how a person is Baptized, or does it "really" matter?



Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/29/2010 at 9:46 AM

I watched the video, Steve. Your Pastor seems like a very nice guy, very articulate, and he obviously has wonderful teaching skills. His sermons would be interesting to attend.

I also understand the points you were trying to convey, but this is what I also came away with; and I mean no disrespect to your belief in any way!

If you do not "turn over" your life to Jesus, you are doomed to eternal damnation.

One of the aspects of "turning over" your life to Jesus, is to give 10% of your gross income to the Church.

To me, those concepts seem self-serving, and go to my impression WHY religions are always condemning each other - they want the income from the flock. And what better way to attract and retain membership than convincing someone that unless they believe and worship in God the same way as you do, they are damned to Hell.

It is difficult for me to accept that an all powerful God who created Heaven and Earth, all things as great as an uncountable number of stars and as small as an atom, cares a wit if you Baptize a baby with a sprinkle or a teenager with a dunking, if you believe that Jesus is actually the son of God or an inspirational teacher of men. I find it illogical that the power that crated life and matter cares about such miniscule behaviors any more than we care if an ant prefers white or brown sugar.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/29/2010 at 1:41 PM

Right on Bill,good name Bill its mine also.(<:
God’s people show genuine, unselfish love for one another. Jesus said: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:35) The early Christians had such love for one another. Godly love overcomes racial, social, and national barriers and draws people together in an unbreakable bond of true brotherhood. (Colossians 3:14) Members of false religions do not have such a loving brotherhood. How do we know that? They kill one another because of national or ethnic differences. True Christians do not take up weapons to kill their Christian brothers or anyone else. The Bible states: “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. . . . We should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”—1 John 3:10-12; 4:20, 21.

10 Of course, genuine love means more than not killing others. True Christians unselfishly use their time, energy, and resources to help and encourage one another. (Hebrews 10:24, 25) They help one another in times of distress, and they deal honestly with others. In fact, they apply in their lives the Bible counsel to “work what is good toward all.”—Galatians 6:10."

Exposed: Six Myths About Christianity:One Myth Leads to Another
Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal
Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell
Myth 3: All Good People Go to Heaven
Myth 4: God Is a Trinity
Myth 5: Mary Is the Mother of God
Myth 6: God Approves of the Use of Images and Icons in Worship
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20091101/article_01.ht
Example:What is the origin of the myth? “The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 11, page 25.

Steve's Pastor says that unless I "turn over my life to JESUS...", when I die I will be "in Hell before my wife can dial 911."

Can one not believe that Jesus was the actual son of God (any more than any of us are the children of God) and avoid Hell?

If not, then some 70% est. of the world's population is going to be mighty toasty!


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/29/2010 at 3:55 PM

According to the Bible no one will ever litterly burn in hell.Why would it matter if so anyway.Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. (<:

You said something about babtism:
"What does the Bible really teach?"
Baptism and Your Relationship With God
How is Christian baptism performed?
What steps do you need to take to qualify for baptism?
How does a person make a dedication to God?
What is the special reason for getting baptized?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_18.htm
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/29/2010 at 4:03 PM

Just an observation there is similarities between religion and politics... Kind of makes me think what started first. The good part about religion is gives us hope we might go to heaven or hell. But in politics they do not spell it so clear...

Well if i go to hell it will be too bad for the devil, good think I am a fire-fighter.... JK.
Modified By les dyduch on 7/29/2010 at 4:09 PM

What does the Bible say about Hell?
Do you see hell as a literal place of fire and brimstone, of unending torment and anguish? Or is hell perhaps a symbolic description of a condition, a state?
What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell?
What Has Happened to
Hellfire?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm

Thank you for the reference, Clyde. I found it very interesting.

I found it interesting because it illustrates, at least to my understanding, that the different interpretations and beliefs even among christians exist extensively between your faith, Catholics, Baptists and LDS. The common denominator is Jesus. Why couldn't religions of all denominations rally around the common denominator of God? Your reference indicates that references to Hell and fire and brimstone may be symbolic, maybe the Bible is filled with symbolism in an attempt to help man live a happier more peaceful existence with his neighbors..?

A simple Bible lesson Bill!
Genesis 1:1 In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.(according to science about how long did this take,in years?)

2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.(was the earth already existing when this happened?)

1. According to current scientific knowledge, somewhere between 5 and 6 Billion years, Clyde [Earth, not heavens]. The universe [Heavens] a bit older, around 14 Billion years.

2. Scientists believe the planet was covered with water for a period of its early development. Nothing to suggest an inconsistency.

Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/29/2010 at 5:31 PM

Bill,
Thanks for watching and giving the video’s a fair hearing. It would be impossible for me to convey that much information here in any reasonable amount of time, I wouldn’t be able to do it anyway near as well as Robert did no mater how much time I had.

Again you ask some difficult questions, but I’ll give them a try.
First you spoke of the dilemma of the differences in view about Baptism.

I think that perhaps the best way to explain how those views come about is to remind you that man has an innate desire to “earn” his forgiveness.
We all feel as though we must “do something” to atone for our “sins”.

“Religions” and “denominations” are created by men, who also have this inborn desire to “earn” their forgiveness from God, each having their own ideas how it must, or should, be done.

But if you read the Bible for yourself, you will find that these “methods” and rules by which various “Religions” and “denominations” are based on either man-made customs altogether, or scripture taken out of context.

Scripture is actually very plainly written, by people from a Jewish culture, and was meant to be easy to understand, but to a person familiar with Jewish culture and the Jewish religion.
And later the New Testament was written to a Greek and Roman world, from a Jewish religious background, transformed to a Christ “minded” “being”.
And just as Robert alluded to, this is a completely different “being”.

But it’s not arrived at by any works you “do”, or how your baptized, or if you give 10% to your church. Or don’t.
For instance, at our church there are boxes attached to the walls in the back at the exits. They simply make request that if you wish, you can make a donation as you leave the building. No basket is passed. No pressure brought to anyone.

When you become a “new being”, if God wants you to change your lifestyle, (and for most of us He probably does), or to give 10 % of your income to your church, He will give you the ability to change, and the desire to do so.
It would do no good for you to force yourself, thinking that these things would bring you “favor” from God.



The message of Christ, and his role in Gods ultimate plan, starts all the way back way before He was ever born, in the book of Genesis.
From the first of Genesis we find that man and woman “sinned”, and became ashamed.
Suddenly aware of their nakedness they hid, and made themselves “coverings” of leaves, so they could be comfortable in front of God.

But from that very start, God said leaves cannot cover sin from His eyes, and HE (GOD) shed the blood of innocent animals, to make them “coverings”, so that they could appear before God.
God from the very start showed that only blood, and only innocent blood, could cover the wrong they had done, and make them acceptable in Gods eyes.
Throughout the bible, Old and New, the theme remains the same, that their own blood, or any deed they might try to perform to earn their own “salvation” or forgiveness or to atone, was not what God would accept.

God “provided” Adam and Eve a covering of blood (symbolic of the blood of his innocent Son to come in the future).

Throughout all the bible books and all of the Jewish religion you will find this recurring “picture”.

That’s what Jesus was speaking of when he finally arrived.
“He” was that absolutely innocent blood that God had provided, but not from an animal, but from God Himself.

All He asks, is that you accept, His gift, of Himself, to you.
And He will help you do the rest.

That, in short, is what you will read for yourself in the Bible, if you dig a little.

Good answers Bill,contex also shows the earth and the universe was already there.Another question!What are these scriptures saying as respects:interpretations of the Bible?
2 Timothy 3:16 ALL! Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, (completely equipped) for every good work.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/kn37/article_01.htm
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/29/2010 at 7:25 PM

Why You
Can Trust Bible Prophecy
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19990715/article_01.htm

Steve,

The entire concept of shedding blood for atonement is pagan, is it not? It does seem to me (in agreement with some of your premise) that the Bible, and the various interpretations that are believed and preached by various denominations, are all constructed, by man, to give him comfort and a structure for something that cannot be structured.

"Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching..."

As we look at the wonders of the world around us, at the miracle of the Universe and our own physical form, we must accept that the complexity of existence is not without design. Beyond that, its all just guess work. We hope, even pray, that those leaders who emerge will use the faith of others for good and not self-serving interests.

Is it possible to answer a question with out quoting scripture. I could care less about anyones religeous beliefs and belive that everyone has the right to think what they want no mater how far fetched it is. but I was truely wondering if you normally talk like this in everyday conversations too?

I worked side by side with two JW on a finish crew in California for over a year. Just the three of us, spreading miles and miles of color-coat on tract houses.

They had plenty of time to try and convince me about their beliefs. They were really terrific guys, but we ultimately came to a point where I had to say, "enough is enough." I don't even want to talk about basketball or fishing every day, and I love basketball and fishing.

They got the message. But then I also gave them their time to get their message out of their system. I agree with you, John; I believe we all should be free (literally and figuratively) to believe whatever we wish about God, Heaven, Hell, the After-Life and all things Spiritual. After all, it really is about a personal decision and relationship.

I hope that this thread has provided an opportunity for everyone to get it our of their system, or at least contain it so that it isn't brought up over and over again when we are discussing the trade.

Austin 3:16 Cause Stone Cold says so

Jason,
Lol, I’m not to sure how I would answer a religious question without quoting at least some scripture. I have tried to keep it to a minimum, and just put things in my own words on this forum.
When I worked construction and was self employed I used to have the opportunity to discuss religion with the stucco guys or others I would regularly work with over the years on a regular basis.
I guess I rarely have the occasion very often anymore to expound to this degree on Christian beliefs.
I know well by many years experience that some have a negative reaction to the subject. Sorry if that’s your case. I don’t mean to offend. But the thread is Re; Religion. ;>)

Bill,
It’s actually just the opposite.
Paganism has a historical habit of distorting “Christian” concepts.
You may be thinking that Christian “concepts” go back only 2000 years to the time of Christ, and of course “Christianity” as it’s commonly known, does.

But you must remember that the Old testament goes back as far as recorded history, and it was written by Jews, before they were even known as Jews.
The Jewish sacrificial system goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden as I pointed out, and is seen outside the garden with Cain and Able, where God would not accept Cain’s offering of his best handiwork from his garden.
But God would accept the blood of Abel’s flawless, innocent, firstborn lamb.
That picture continues countless times through the Old Test.
All the way to the New Test. where Jesus was recognized, by those who knew what to look for, as the “Lamb” of God.
And remember, the religious Jews of Jesus time completely missed all of this themselves, even though they knew scripture well.
But Jesus did not fit their preconceived notion of how their Messiah would present Himself.

You said; It does seem to me (in agreement with some of your premise) that the Bible, and the various interpretations that are believed and preached by various denominations, are all constructed, by man, to give him comfort and a structure for something that cannot be structured.

The part I would disagree with is where you say that the Bible was constructed by man.
I feel confident you would agree that it was God breathed, and written down by man, just as it claims, if you look at it very carefully.

But I agree that the Bible is preached by various denominations, many constructed by man, to give him comfort and structure. And “religion” is somewhat successful at that.
But I’m sorry that you feel you seek structure for something that cannot be structured.
As Clyde has pointed out very well, all that is around us is VERY structured.

From the universe, to the cell, to the molecule, to the atom, and beyond,
all is structured, to an extent that is impossible to grasp or fathom.

Some “One” had to input all this information, to cause all this immensely complex structure.

Is it possible that this "One" created you, and left you a communication in a book, that can be authenticated, because He wants to have close relationship with you and those you love?
Is it possible?

Take the time to examine the document closely.



Modified By steve mathews on 7/29/2010 at 11:28 PM

Bill you started this link.I have met very many JW's on this board through the years.One runs a huge plasteing company in another country,that travels and does work world wide.The Bible is the perfect word,and will of Jehovah.You dont expect me to disrespect,lisening to Jehovah speak do you? Have you noticed what Jesus and his followers talked about all the time?By the way people never got tired listing to him either.Last year Jehovah's Witnesses spent 1,557,788,344 hours speakin to people world wide,letting Jehovah speak to them.Have you noticed world conditions recently?Almost all Bible prophecy's have been fullfilled.One real big one soon to happen 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.
That's The great tribulation Jesus spoke about:Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/30/2010 at 4:47 AM

http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/g_E_201008.mp3.zip
What Do You Know About Jehovah¡¦s Witnesses? MP3
What Others Have Said MP3
Frequently Asked Questions MP3
What Do Jehovah¡¦s Witnesses Believe? MP3
A Lawyer Examines Jehovah¡¦s Witnesses
Bill you having a fair and open mind,I invite you to listen to these 5 short articles.They are in the August 2010 Awake,the second most distributed and read magazine in the world(averging 38,451,000 in 83 languages),first is the Watchtower.Cover is: "Jehovah's Witnesses who are they?"

Did you know they are christians,but not protestant,fundamentalists or a sect?Did you know according to a report from National Council of Churches,out of 25 of the largest religions in the United States,they are one of only four that have shown a increase?

I like this quote in "The New English"Bible:Proverbs 14:15 "A simple man beleaves every word he hears;a clever man understands the need for proof"

"(Acts 17:11) Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes¡Esa¡Elo¡Eni¡¬ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."

Clyde,

Yes, I did (start this thread). The reason I did was because it seemed that every conversation you or sometimes Steve (usually in response to you) would insert scriptures and Biblical references.

Having worked with those two men (JW) I am very familiar with your need to "witness" whenever and wherever you can. But I also know that in our daily lives men of your faith understand that sometimes, enough is enough. This thread gives all of us an opportunity to talk about our beliefs, ask questions and challenge ideas; all heathy stuff. But I also hope that it reminds us that not everyone wishes to listen [read] about Biblical prophecies every time they want to discuss work or other subjects. Jesus may have wanted to, but the rest of us are mere mortals.

I didnt realize you had a alterior motive.Dont know how honest that is,but it is what it is.I dont have a alterior motive,just trying to be nice.

Clyde, I wasn't trying to not be "nice. I said in my opening remarks:

"As long as the majority of the topics and replies seem to be about religion these days and not drywall or plaster, I thought I would ask a few questions:

My asking questions I hope I did two things; the first is to give anyone interested in the topic an opportunity to exchange ideas. The second, to suggest that when we have "off-topic" subjects, it is always a good idea to keep them to a minimum and to try and isolate them in a thread where the reader will understand upon opening the thread that this is the topic to be discussed; as opposed to reading about drywall and all of a sudden be confronted with scripture or politics or any other off-topic post that may appear out of place to them.

As for my honesty, well, my questions and replies on the topic were honest and forthright. I asked about things I was curious about and thought you and Steve might have thoughtful insight on. You are free to think what you will of me, but I was, and am, being honest.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/30/2010 at 1:38 PM

Hey Guys,
I just logged on and read this thread, really quite interesting and civil. My personal belief is that religion is a construct of man as are the scriptures. Genesis takes much from Babalonian myth, especially concerning the flood, in regard to Gilgamesh. Monotheism predates Biblical written scripture thru Egypt, aka the sun god Ra. We could go on for days discussing this, there is strong evidence that much of the orginal New Testament was supressed, and the question of Christs mortality was very much in discussion at the council of Nicaea. We know who won that argument, but were they right? Lutherans still discuss it. Eventually we get to the question of can you believe in God yet reject these books of men? I think so, Bishop Shelby Spong has written much concerning this.
IMO Christianity, especially fundamentalist Christianity is a primitive left over from the stone age. I respect others beliefs, for much good comes from them, the JW sense of community is wonderful, and the commitment to the welfare of the poor and downtrodden of most other beliefs also. I believe that everyone has their own private interpretation of this great mystery and if it works for you that is great.
IMHO the perception of God as this big daddy who's gonna spank you if you're bad is just plain juvenile, and most of the preachers who play off this are little more that husksters.
Modified By Phil Bender on 7/30/2010 at 5:33 PM

Phil,
As I hope I have helped to clarify, the God of the Bible is not “a God as this big daddy who's gonna spank you if you're bad”.
He is rather, a God who was willing to die in order to provide us a way back to his presence.
We only have to accept His gift, that He provided.


In regard to the sun god Ra, here is an example of the ancient pagan Egyptian religion.
Notice the similarity, but distorted caricature, of the Genesis account;

Attributes: From very early times Ra was a sun god.
He took on many of the attributes and even the names of other gods as Egyptian myths evolved..
. . . .One legend states that each day, Ra was born and began a journey across the sky. Ra was believed to travel in the Manjet-boat. He was joined on this daily journey by a crew of many gods . The Manjet-boat would sail through the twelve provinces, representing the twelve hours of daylight.
At the end of each day Ra was thought to die and embarked on his night voyage. For this journey he was called Auf, which means 'corpse'.
Ra sailed in a boat called the Mesektet-boat or night-barque on his journey through the twelve hours of darkness.
. . . . .It was not always smooth sailing on these ships. During the day Ra had to defeat his chief enemy, a serpent or snake named Apep.
A great battle was faught between Ra and Apep, and Ra was usually victorious, however on stormy days or during an eclipse the Egyptians believed that Apep had been victorious and swallowed the sun.
.Because no wind blows in the Underworld, Auf (Ra) had to rely on various unfriendly spirits and demons to help tow his barque along the river in the underworld. Auf's main job in the Underworld was to bring light to the souls of the dead as he passed through their realm.
After his departure these souls fell back into a lonely darkness. The Underworld of these early solar myths was a very different place then the fields of peace that we find in the Osiris cults of the later periods.http://www.egyptartsite.com/ra.html

As you can see, the Egyptian religion is simply a pagan distortion of the Biblical story in Genesis.
Not the other way around.



Modified By steve mathews on 7/30/2010 at 6:26 PM

Phil,
Good article.
Notice that it acknowledges that ;’Most ancient civilizations have a legend that speaks of a great flood that covered the whole Earth. The civilizations include places as the Middle East, India, China, Australia, southern Asia, the islands of the
Pacific, Europe, Africa, and the Americas. ("Creation/Flood")”
You will find that practically every civilization known has a version of this “flood” story.
Most are extremely distorted, much more even than the Babylonian account.

But of course that is exactly what one would expect to see if the ancestors of all peoples of the world had been through a cataclysmic worldwide flood in the distant past.
The story would become more and more corrupted and culturally tailored over time.

The true account of the Flood,
was given to a man,
after a “culture of people” were developed,(We’ll call them "the hapless Hebrews")
who would carefully transcribe the words ,
that God Himself by divine inspiration,
provided for man to write.

That is why the account of the flood found in the Torah is still around today, and uncorrupted, and has none of the exaggerated aspects of any mythology or legend.




Modified By steve mathews on 7/30/2010 at 9:01 PM

Steve,
True according to you, because you believe that version. Floods happen all over the world, still do, and in Biblical times, their concept of the world was much, much smaller than ours. An interesting mythical story, but nothing more.
Your remarks regarding the sun god Ra are very good they just go to show when a belief system becomes too fantastical to be taken seriously it is abandoned. Sort of the survial of the fittest. Wouldn't you say? On the other side of the coin, however, you take seriously such biblical stories as the tower of Babel as well as the surealistic Revelation of John. To many today those stories are obsolete, too fantastical to be believed. Yet I hear Sunday morning preachers expounding long and hard on these ridiculous images.
In a similar vein regarding revealed truth and revelation from God. How many Sunday morning preachers have claimed to have such revelations. Joseph Smith claimed such revealed truth and we got the Book of Mormon, Muhammad claimed the same and we got the Koran.
Also, it is so cultural, I am sure the image of Christ on the cross in an AME church is black, and the image of Christ on the cross in an Arayan Nation Church (they do exist) is lily white. I saw something a while back the "Good Buddy Christ" complete with surf board. (Now that is a silly image). Then there is the avenging Christ, the sacrficing Christ, and we have yet to touch on the relationship between the Easter Passion and Yom Kippur where the concept of the Pascal lamb and the scapegoat come into play.
BTW, I come from a long line of rebaptisers (Anabaptist) and I think adult baptism is a good idea;-) But then again I don't believe in any of it and yet all of it. Can you figure that one out?

One mans revelation is another mans drivel.
Modified By Phil Bender on 7/30/2010 at 9:44 PM

Phil,
The Flood is an interesting mythical story but nothing more to you I believe, because you believe only what you can easily conceive.

I would suggest you consider carefully all the evidence before making such a judgment. After all, Jesus believed in the flood of Noah.
Do you think you have a better “understanding” of history than He?


I’m not sure how you would even know what I would think about the Revelation of John.
But I see no scientific reason to disbelieve the biblical account of the tower of Babel or the Flood.
And believe me, I have looked.

As far as revealed truth and revelation from God;
God provided a verification method for us to be able to determine whether or not the “revealed truth” or “revelation” had come from the one true God of the Bible.

That being, He was the only one who could predict precisely events before they occurred. Precisely! To the letter! Hundreds of years before they happen.
Demonstrating that He is a Being, outside our time domain, seeing the future before it happens.

The Bible is unique, in that is the only book that can be historically authenticated by fulfilled prophecy.


Gods revelation to man can be your ticket out, of eternal separation from Him.

I don't bother coming on this site much anymore cause all it is is talk of JW and god. I'm sure there are other sites out there you can talk to other similiar minded people about all this bs. I think people should keep their beliefs to themselves or find the proper place to discuss them. I don't see where walking up to someones house in the middle of the day while that person is trying to work or spend time with the family is an acceptable aproach to try and teach someone about their god. I mean really how often does that actually work. I cant see too many people saying " you know come to think of it I was waiting here for someone to come by and enlighten me"

Jason,
I get it that JW and god talk is not your cup of tea.
What puzzles me is if that’s so, why would you bother clicking on a thread that is titled “Re; Religion”?
Particularly when you have already been to it once and found it so disturbing.

What I would find interesting is to try and understand what makes a person such as you so sensitive to the “god” subject in the first place.
God seems a natural thing to contemplate and discuss to me.
I really don’t get the sensitivity thing.
Care to explain?

Phil,
I just noticed, I guess you added to your post between the time I was answering yours last.
As far as the different depictions of Christ go, they might want to do as I have been suggesting and read their bible for themselves, because Jesus was an olive skin, dark haired, dark eyed Arabic Jewish person born in the Middle East. .
Yeah, I know. One would think that’s a no-brainer. I have no idea how they missed that.

As to the avenging Christ, the sacrificing Christ, Easter Passion and Yom Kippur, all characteristics and roles played by, or yet to be played by Christ.
I doubt you are a one dimensional person either.
Why would you expect Christ would be?

So…you “don't believe in any of it and yet all of it.” Can I figure that one out?

No. But I’m trying. ;>)




Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 12:05 AM

Guess I'm just sad that I have not been saved

Im going to peoples houses at 9 am.In the month of August we will being asking "Likely,Jehovah's Witnesse's have talked to you before.Have ypu ever wondered why we go from door to door,especially since most people are not intersted? Allow Jason to respond.Then read Matthew 24:14 And this GOOD NEWS of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Then we will offer to give them the August 2010 Awake.
Earler post:http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/g_E_201008.mp3.zip
What Do You Know About Jehovah's Witnesses? MP3
What Others Have Said MP3
Frequently Asked Questions MP3
What Do Jehovah¡¦s Witnesses Believe? MP3
A Lawyer Examines Jehovah¡¦s Witnesses The beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are no secret.Literature available in hundred of languages,upward of 500,all free of charge.

403 languages on line here:
http://www.watchtower.org/
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/31/2010 at 4:46 AM

/
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/31/2010 at 6:50 AM

God has revealed Himself to all of creation by the very nature of things.

In early times, at the height of great civilizations, man believed there were many Gods, each to fit his own need to understand what he witnessed around him and which he lacked scientific understanding of. And while few today believe in the mythical deities of old, man is still attempting to fill what he doesn't understand with superstitious beliefs.

I respect the Bible, not as the literally word of God but as an effort by man to respect and understand God and the world in which we live. I believe man crafted the Bible in order to teach moral lessons and influence others. Few people I know take the Bible literally, most take it as an effort to construct a road map to live a good life and maintain a civilized society.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 9:58 AM

Don't suppose anyone wants to try and tackle SCIENTOLOGY?

Bill,
I guess we just travel different circles. I know a few people who view the world and the bible as you do. But most I know take the bible seriously.

You’re very correct that God has revealed Himself to all of creation by the very nature of things. And He still does.

But God also left an extremely detailed instruction manual to the world He created for us, predicting future events in the guidebook, to the letter, so that we could know The Book came from Him.

In the Biblical record, every detail, every place name, every number, has been skillfully tailored by deliberate design.

And they all point to Jesus.

He is on every page, intricately hidden in every detail of the text.

Jesus confounded the religious leaders of His day when they couldn't break the code of the Old Testament text:

"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They said unto him, The Son of David. He said unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? [Jesus is quoting Psalm 110:1.] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions." -Matthew 22:41-46

They couldn't break the code.

They couldn't understand that He, Jesus Christ, was the embodiment of prophecies from the Old Testament.

It is essential for each of us to make sure we don't fall into the same quandary by failing to see Christ for who He was prophesied to be.


It is interesting that Jesus chose to open His ministry at the synagogue of Nazareth by reading from the prophet Isaiah:
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah.
And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.
And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." - Luke 4:16-22

It is interesting to compare His reading with the complete passage in Isaiah:

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God." -Isaiah 61:1-2

It is significant that Jesus stopped at what is a comma in our text.

He deliberately omitted the additional phrase, "and the day of vengeance of our God."
Because of details like this, I continue to hold a very literal view of the Biblical text and have learned to respect its precision.

Jesus intentionally limited His reading to the mission of His first coming: "This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears."

The "day of vengeance" has been deferred until His Second Coming.

The "pause" of that comma in Isaiah 61 has lasted almost two thousand years, and it appears that it is about to be concluded.
But by quoting the Old Testament, a prophecy all of His listeners were familiar with, He wanted to state clearly He was The Messiah, the long-awaited One.


And again, at one of His first appearances after His resurrection, on that Sunday afternoon walk to Emmaus, Jesus spoke of Himself in the context of Old Testament history: "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27).

Jesus led them in a Bible study entirely from the Old Testament, highlighting the very things that had so shaken them during the previous few days.
He reinforced His Father's sovereignty by speaking of a plan that had been unfolding for centuries, a plan that involved the salvation of mankind.

Some deny that He claimed to be God. But anyone who is unaware of His claims hasn't read the Bible.
His claim to be God was the very reason that they crucified Him.

The issue is, were His claims valid?
Our individual destinies will hinge on that issue.







Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 12:06 PM

We had a good conversation with race car driver Joe Nemocheck's uncle this am.Shared many scriptures with him,on Gods name.One of the magazines for July 2010 is on that.He being a catholic and very nice.He had moved and read the litature before.Was very nice and commended us,wanted us to help the younger generation."Do you know God by name" is the July 2010 issue of the watchtower.(Isaiah 42:8) “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

Its not in his catholic bible,as its not in the older version of the KJV.But anywhere you see God in caps,its Jehovah.
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/31/2010 at 12:58 PM

As some have recently said, 'this is a teachable moment..."

My understanding of the Bible itself is that it is a collection of Books, written by different individual who claim to have been inspired by God and/or are conveying historical events, including quoting Jesus.

The only thing that is claimed to have "actually" been handed down BY God is the Ten Commandments, but there was only ONE witness to that event who had personal motives to try and rally a people around a common purpose.

Its also my understanding that mortals, not unlike you and me, have made decisions about what is contained in the Bible after considering many options. So I wonder why God, being all powerful didn't send something a little less speculative to convey His message?

I happen to believe that God's true message was left for us to decipher in all we see, and are yet to see, in the world and cosmos that surrounds us.

It is a miracle that intelligent life (some may dispute "how" intelligent) was able to come into existence and survive on a little tiny ball spinning around a slightly bigger ball of fire in the vastness of the universe where uncountable number of balls spin and collide apparently void of such possibilities that exist here. Everything else is man's attempt to explain it all.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 2:00 PM

Bill,
I think the best way to answer your question of “why didn't God send something a little less speculative to convey His message than the bible?” would be to ask you what exactly He could have done that would do that for you, and everyone, for all of time.

It may be that you don’t realize that He did do just that down through the century’s of time according to the Bible and the historical record.

Culminating in God sending His own Son to earth, who worked miracles of all sorts, even raised the dead, finally even rising from the dead Himself according to historical accounts, a fact that can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.


What exactly is it that you think would convince you, as well as everyone else, that He hasn’t already done?

Please be very specific.




Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 3:00 PM

Good questions Bill.
The Bible—A Book From God chapter two!
In what ways is the Bible different from any other book?
How can the Bible help you cope with personal problems?(you said you used this! (<:]
Why can you trust the prophecies recorded in the Bible?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_02.htm
(20 short paragraphs)
http://www.jw.org/index.html?option=QrYQZRQVNlBBX&selLang=E&selPub=bh
(same Bible aid in 60 languages,MP3,used by missionary and ministers allover the world as a teaching aid.Check out the chapters.And if you read chapter two or anyone,use your personal Bible.

"What does the Bible really teach" is the name of the publication.
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/31/2010 at 3:06 PM

Steve,

Maybe I did a poor job of expressing myself, or we are wrapping both our messages a little off of one another - I do believe in God, and my "proof" of His existence is in nature, not a book written by the hand of man.

My rhetorical question was to suggest that an all powerful God could have easily done a better job of conveying the messages attributed to the Bible if He had wanted to.

The stars in the sky and the DNA in our bodies are by the hand of God, not a book that cannot even be agreed upon by religions of same basic belief (i.e., Christian, jew, LDS). Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, Baptists generally disagree with the ritual of the Catholic Church, Catholics don't recognize the Book of Mormon (claimed by the LDS to be "Scriptures") and within each of these groups there are "orthodox" and "unorthodox" interpretations of the Bible. The God who created the perfection of the atom wouldn't have written something so ambiguous that man would fight wars over its meaning.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 3:11 PM

Bill,
Actually, I think I did a poor job of asking the question.

I do recognize that you do believe in God.
But what Im asking is;
if it is true that there is more to the story than what you can just “see” around you, like the Bible clearly says, and God wants to warn you of it, how would he better to do so than He already has?


Your last paragraph of your last post deals with “religions”, a tool used by the advisory of God to divide and conquer.

What exact method can you imagine that God should have used, that He has not, to lay out His plan to us, and warn us of what we cannot see?


Because if He did send His Son to die for you, He clearly did want to communicate that to you.

Are you certain that Jesus was not the Son of God, and that what He offered is of no use to you?




Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 3:36 PM

People of "faith" can be found in all religions.

There are even a few people, like me, who "believe" but question the authenticity (and motives) of organized religion. Although we respect, and even participate in, a lot of the good work religious organization do for mankind.

To try and answer your question:

"What exact method can you imagine that God should have used, that He has not, to lay out His plan to us, and warn us of what we cannot see?"

I believe He has conveyed all the information He wants to (in nature). There is nothing left for Him to convey, only for us to understand.

As far as a "warning". Well maybe He has left us a warning. Maybe the message can be found in the brown sky or the blackened ocean. I believe in using analogies to convey important lessons, good teachers do it all the time. And I respect the Bible and its authors for attempting to instruct mankind on principles to live a better life. But no, I do not believe most of the Bible stories "literally" and therefore cannot even conceive of why, let alone how, God would want to convey that message.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 3:49 PM

Bill,
Actually very little of the Bible or its authors attempt to instruct mankind on principles to live a better life.
Only really Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and to a lesser degree the Psalms deal with that subject directly.
The rest of the books, the 10 commandments, Christ’s teaching’s, as well as the Disciples taught man how to please and relate to and approach God.

Very little in the whole Bible on actual principles to “live a better life”.
It is all about “How to please God”.
If you live in communist China or Muslim Turkey for instance, and try living by the principles of the Bible, it is likely to bring you much misery from the governments of those countries.
But much pleasure to God.


I think what you are doing is forming a view of what you think “the Bible says”, without reading very much for yourself of what it really does say.

You will quickly find that is a much more complex and detailed communication.

Basically, and throughout you will find that God wants to communicate to you;

1. That all that you see around you is about to end at some time in the relatively near future.
2. That your conscience is destine to live on after you die.
3. That God has an adversary who is attempting to block and distort His communication with you.
4. That Gods adversary has successfully polluted and cursed Gods creation by the freewill choice of His creation.
5. That because of mans freewill choice and the resulting curse, you would be separated from your Creator for eternity.
6. But that God has provided a way to escape this curse.
7. And that God wants you to know that His Son Jesus is your only means of escape the wrath that accompanies the curse.
8. And that there will be no other way.

If you take the time to read the 66 bible books, you will find this recurring theme throughout each and every one of them.

Even though the 66 books of that bible were written by 40 different authors, over a 1500 year span, you will find they all have the same warning, and the same cure.
They somehow all speak of this same Jesus.
That is miraculous in itself.

Even though in the OT they didn’t even understand what they were writing.
And in the NT, their culture and religious view had murdered Jesus.

If what the bible says is true, it will be too late for you to examine and change your mind if you die and find yourself on the other side of this life tomorrow.


Invest some time and a closer look at the Book you think you already have pegged.

I think you are going to be very surprised to find it’s not at all as you have described and believe it is.
Examine how it was written, who wrote it, and how accurately it texts that have arrived to us.
You will ultimately find more than you have bargained for.




Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 4:55 PM

Many of the items you attribute in the Bible to "How to please, God" are also ways to live a better life. "Thou Shall Not Kill" etc. One does not preclude the other.

I do not believe that God will treat differently people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah from those who don't. I do believe people who try and live a moral and ethical life, who are charitable and considerate of others, will generally be happier and have less stress in their life.

I believe in an after-life; but confess no opinion on what that may be like. The great mystery of life that no one has yet revealed. I don't care for the explanation of pearly gates or fire and brimstone that is so often used to brainwash so many who are desperate for help in their life.

I admit that some events in my life may have influenced that opinion. Elderly relatives who got bamboozled and ripped off by the Bakers, a hypocritical Pastor in my youth who was overbearing in his interpretation and then ran off with a parishioners wife and some money from the church.

I believe everyone interprets the Bible through their own filter, just like we do the news. That includes you and me.




Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 5:28 PM

A question for either, Steve or Clyde:

Based upon the teachings of your church, will a good Catholic, one who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but who also believes and practices ALL the ritual and dogma of the Catholic Church - Will such a person be treated in the after-life the same as you will?

How about a Mormon?

Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 5:50 PM

I think you may agree with what the Bible states Bill.
"'But the Bible contains hundreds of principles,' one might say. 'I cannot hope to know them all.' True. Consider this fact though: While all godly principles are beneficial, some carry more weight than others. You can see that from Matthew 22:37-39, where Jesus showed that among the commandments and corresponding principles of the Mosaic Law, some were more important than others." http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020215/article_02.htm

A key part of our mental and emotional makeup is free will. Yes, God implanted in us the faculty of freedom of choice. It was indeed a wonderful gift from him.The Bible tells us that God created man in his 'image and likeness,' and one of the faculties God himself has is freedom of choice. (Genesis 1:26; Deuteronomy 7:6) When he created humans, he gave them that same wonderful faculty—the gift of free will.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/dg/article_05.htm

That dont count laws like:Drunkenness.—1 Corinthians 5:11.
 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

Bill the Bible does not teach a after life.After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in [the grave].” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10) Similarly, Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, “his thoughts do perish.” We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone.


Billions upon billions will be reserected.
The Bible repeatedly connects the resurrection hope with Jehovah’s memory. The faithful man Job said to Jehovah: “O . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13) Jesus referred to the resurrection of “all those in the memorial tombs.” This was appropriate because Jehovah perfectly remembers the dead whom he intends to resurrect.—John 5:28, 29.
Just think, though, about the hope of the resurrection. How intimately Jehovah must know us in order to recreate us! He values us so much that he remembers every detail, including our genetic code and all our years of memories and experiences.

Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/31/2010 at 6:05 PM

Bill,
I too think it’s obvious that people who try and live a moral and ethical life, who are charitable and considerate of others, will generally be happier and have less stress in their life.

And I realize we don’t like to think that there may be an afterlife waiting that we would not prefer.
You say that it the afterlife is the great mystery of life that no one has yet revealed.
However, if you believe in Jesus, He did reveal what the afterlife will be.
You may recall the story that Jesus told of a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and a beggar named Lazarus. Luke 16:20

Here is a link to the story. But remember that this is not a parable. In parables people do not have names.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=16&t=KJV#22

Like I said, God gave us the bible as a warning as well as a guide to the way out of our predicament.

He even left the fossil record as a testament and evidence that He has destroyed the earth before during the Flood.
The vegetation covered suddenly by enormous volumes of dirt, even under the sea floor, is where we get our oil from these days.

I realize the adversary has done a good job of “reinterpreting” that story today.

But God left that evidence in nature for a reason.
And that was so you could see and know, that what He said in the Bible has happened.
And you can be sure to avoid the judgment that is to come.


And yes.
The bible says anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be saved.




Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 6:09 PM

Steve how can a person accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior,if they think he is Almighty God Jehovah,whitch according the Bible he is not.Jesus was created twice,Jehovah was never created.The trinity plain and simple not true according to the Bible.


How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 7/31/2010 at 6:21 PM

My word, I've been out all day and never would have imagined there would be so much conversation over this topic.
Steve,
Your claim of literal belief in all of the Bible is a little hard to swallow, does that include Seraphim (with 3 pairs of wings hovering over the throne of God)and Cherubim (one to four faces and either one or two pair of wings). For the record there are nine grades of angels, from highest to lowest they are, seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions virtures, powers, principalities, archangels and angels. With such a complicated hierarchy it's starting to sound pretty far fetched, don't you think?
What next? Leprechauns? Wee fairy folk?
Modified By Phil Bender on 7/31/2010 at 6:30 PM

I am VERY interested (seriously) to see Clyde and Steve reconcile their interpretations about whether there is an "after-life" or not...

And Steve, I take it by your answer that everyone else, Jews, Muslims, misguided souls like myself, are all damned to Hell?

Such a belief offers a lot of comfort to the sick and those who have had a terrible life, such as criminals. A child molester who spends half their life in prison and "turns their life over to Jesus" is filled with hope of a second chance; but a Rabbi or a atheist Social Worker who has spent their entire life helping others is doomed to be in never ending agony?

You have to admit that this challenges our sense of fairness and right and wrong.


Modified By Bill Rogers on 7/31/2010 at 7:09 PM

Steve,
I am not certain if you are familar with the celebration of Yom Kipper, the day of atonement ( for that matter I am not). According to my understanding a Pascal lamb was sacraficed for atonement and the scapegoat with the sins of the people was set free to wander. (I am sure the goat was happy about that). Some scholars do not think that Christ was crucified during passover, in fact they're not sure when he was crucified. Only that he died alone. They also think that the story was modified to please Jewish followers and that the symbolism of the blood sacrifice would be significant to them. What we have here is a basic manipulation of the facts.
The idea of a blood sacrifice I find a bit primitive,
here are some references
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/archive/index.php/t-54490.html
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129:did-jesus-fulfill-the-role-of-the-asham-qguilt-offeringq&catid=48:suffering-servant&Itemid=500
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sunrise/56-07/xt-ibel5.htm
BTW After reading up on Yom Kipper, I think it is one terrific idea.
Modified By Phil Bender on 7/31/2010 at 8:54 PM

Phil,
I guess you need to re-read what I wrote.
I said that I take the bible seriously.
But this does not mean that the Bible is not literally true.
It is literally true where it is intended to be literally true, figurative where it is intended to be figurative, poetic where is meant to be poetic, etc.
We have to examine the wide diversity of biblical writing, using logic, contextual analysis, etc.

Clyde,
I admit I share your concerns about what “Jesus” you believe in just as you are concerned about what Jehovah I believe in.
But Bill’s question was ; “will a good Catholic,(or Mormon) one who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but who also believes and practices ALL the ritual and dogma of the Catholic Church - Will such a person be treated in the after-life the same as you will?”
My answer was yes, the bible says anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be saved.

Clyde, only God knows what is in the heart of a man.
I don’t know for sure what is in his heart.
But I do know that God knows.

I do know that if a man says that he repents his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then you should begin to see the fruit of that within time.
As you know, “repent” means “to turn away from”.

The Bible says in Phil 2:13 “For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him.”

If a man determines to “turn from sinning”, and follows Psa 119:11 “ Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
” God will work in you, giving you the desire to obey Him and the power to do what pleases Him.


Bill,
I will attempt to answer your question whether the bible says Jews, Muslims, misguided souls like yourself, are all damned to Hell.

Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment.

We would agree that God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and eternal (Psalm 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17 ).

God punishes the evildoer and this punishment will be eternal. (Isaiah 11:13)


Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there.

After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them?
If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while.
But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said,
"And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell," (Matt. 5:29-30).

The bible teaches that without the cleansing sacrifice of Christ on the cross (which is received by faith), nobody will be able to stand before the infinitely holy presence of God, no matter how good they were on earth.

Obviously, a "good person" has not sinned as much as a person who purposely rebelled against God his whole life.

But it is not the amount of sin that is the issue. Rather, it is sin itself.
Any sin is sufficient to bring damnation. And not all will be saved from it.



Modified By steve mathews on 7/31/2010 at 10:34 PM

Phil,
I’m sure we could find some scholars that are confused about a lot of things.

But their confusion need not be yours.

If you would truly seek answers rather than simply trying to find some sideshow to debunk the bible, God would actually help you find the truth.

Now, now. So far we've had a great discussion, let's not muddy it up.

If I read Steve and Clyde's replies correctly, there is a difference in their church's belief in the after-life. A VERY important aspect of religious belief.

So why the difference guys, and who is right? Getting to Heaven and avoiding Hell is the reason many are sitting in the pews.

Steve,
You said
"It is literally true where it is intended to be literally true, figurative where it is intended to be figurative, poetic where is meant to be poetic, etc."
That certainly leaves a lot up to the reader then doesn't it? Defining what is to be taken literal as opposed to figurative. If it is no longer believable then its figurative, right? I am sure there are those who still take this angel stuff quite literally, much like you take the flood myth, babel myth and Johns Revelation literally. Also much like your obtuse interpretation of fossel records that predate man by millions of years. I can only imagine the sedimentation rates that had to be cooked for anyone to buy that.
Bill,
I'm getting out of this thread it is getting just a little esoteric for me, but you brign up a great point. The idea of heaven and hell, which brings up the conundrum, " Two people do the same act of kindness, one because he feels it was the right thing the other because he would be rewarded in heaven, who is the better person?" For clarification, imagine if you will the first person is an atheist the second a Baptist.
In regard to the choice, the idea of sitting next to Steve for all of eternity would truely be a punishment;-)
Modified By Phil Bender on 7/31/2010 at 11:29 PM

Phil,
The fossil record you see in the earth could be formed in a matter of weeks by a worldwide flood.
The bible says the earth was very different then.
There had never been rain before.
There was a great deal of water under the earth’s surface.
The climate was much different, and a terrarium effect was created by the firmament, causing the gigantic vegetation we find in the fossil record.

Frozen, fossil and coalized vegetation and vegetation turned to oil and gas thousands of feet deep are found all the way from the Artic Circle, to the miles below some of the deepest oceans in the world.
Noah’s Flood is really the only plausible explanation for all we find.

The bible said the “great fountains of the deep were opened” as well as water from the heavens, raining down and spewing up from below for 40 days and nights.
A lot of dirt would be relocated in such a catastrophe.


Bill,
You are right; there is a big difference in Clyde’s and my church's beliefs in the after-life, as well as some other important details.

But I think you need to read for yourself and decide about heaven and hell and the others.
Ultimately it is your choice to make.
It’s why I so adamantly try to get you to examine the text yourself.

Don’t only take my or Clyde’s word for something that could effect you and your family’s eternity.




Modified By steve mathews on 8/1/2010 at 12:18 AM

If your interested, you could tune in tomorrow to a live episode at my church here in Texas. They have 3 services on Saturday and 3 on Sundays at 3 different campuses.
You could see one live on the web at 9am, 10:45 or 12:30.

Who knows?
Maybe you’ll get to see them handle the snakes. ;-)

Just go to http://www.gatewaypeople.tv/ and you’ll find a countdown clock to the next start time or go to one in progress.
You may see my daughter singing on stage at the Southlake Campus.
I went to the service tonight.
The message is very relevant to the topic of who goes to heaven that we have been discussing.

Brady Boyd is the speaker, guesting from New Life Church in Colorado that had the shooting a couple years back.

Good thing on the flood Steve.Bill question:Acording to the Bible,where is there room for some afterlife?
Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.
Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

Seems like todays text agrees with Bills questions,religousely and politicaly.Just a snippet: Text for Sunday, August 01, 2010
It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.—Jer. 10:23
Human efforts have failed to stem the tide of badness. This world’s political, commercial, and religious institutions have never fulfilled the basic human need for peace, prosperity, and health. Far from solving the huge problems now facing mankind, these institutions have added to them. Surely, thousands of years of human rule have proved the truthfulness of the words of today’s text. Yes, “man has dominated man to his injury.” (Eccl. 8:9)

Modified By Clyde Fleming on 8/1/2010 at 5:56 AM

I would think Steve thinks this way also,then maybe he dont,I do.
Do the Witnesses believe that their religion is the only right one?
Anyone who is serious about his religion should think that it is the right one. Otherwise, why would he or she be involved in it? Christians are admonished: "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith. Ephesians 4:5 confirms this, mentioning "one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Excellent points, thank you all.

I appreciate and respect how passionate, and adamant you both are about your faith and the religion you practice.

I was raised and Baptized in the Southern Baptist Church. As I alluded too earlier, and in previous discussions, it was NOT a good experience and contributed greatly to my distrust of a certain type of stereotypical religious leader; the "Fire & Brimstone" preaching sweaty red-neck who tells his flock to do one thing or they are damned for all eternity and then does the opposite in their own life.

It wasn't just the hypocritical nature of this experience that tarnished me, he (and a few other guest Pastors) would stand and point down the street towards the Catholic Church and say things like, "they are lost, they will burn in Hell, their rituals and practices are Pagan." Later in life I just happened to be in a position where I observed some terrific humanitarians who happen to be Catholic and wondered, "these are great people, how can they be so misguided?" It was our Baptist Pastor and company that was "misguided."

You keep urging me to "read the Bible [text] for myself" as if you suspect I've never opened the Book. I may not have attempted to become a scholar or even tried to commit large passages of the Book to memory, but I assure you, my questions here are not offered out of ignorance of the subject.

I consider myself to be a truly Blessed individual. I started life born to a 15 year old addict, grew up in poverty and abusive foster care homes. My moral compass was forged by involvement with the Boy Scouts and oddly enough, that Baptist Church. That and having the phycological drive to seek out and identify with positive role-models. Today I am a healthy and happy person with a wonderful "functional" family and a job that permits me to spend my life helping young people who were dealt a hand similar to my own.

What I see is that religion is a double edged sword, on the one hand it offers comfort, support, moral guidance and opportunity. On the other it can be used for brainwashing, personal financial gain and as we have seen all too often in history, it can be the root of hatred and violence of one man against another - because of their difference in their belief of God.

You both have said [paraphrasing] that the Bible has ALL the answers. You have suggested that it is infallible in its conveying of everything from the beginning of time to the end of days. Yet even the two of you disagree what the Bible says on one of the most fundamental aspects of religion - What happens to us when we cast off these mortal coils?

The choice you leave someone like me is not unlike suggesting we choose between Wendy's or McDonald's after doing a taste test. They both serve hamburger, so picking a religion is just a matter of what "floats your boat" after reading the Book? My point here isn't to demean (just an analogy) but rather to say that I like both Wendy's and McDonald's and I don't see anything wrong with liking them both, or trying a 5-Guys. They are all going to quench my hunger (and make me fat), and one is no more or less fattening than the other.

The God of creation cannot possibly care about the minute differences taught by man-made religions.

Hell is a myth thought up by people who wanted to scare others into following their teachings.

I hope, and pray and believe that the Soul is something that never dies. And that Heaven is more about finding true happiness here on earth than walking on clouds or through pearly gates.

Bill,
Thanks for sharing your background and experiences. A very interesting story you have.
Like I’ve said before, your caring heart is easy to perceive.
And your former religious experience sounds similar to my own.
I too have seen ‘religion” on one hand offer comfort, support, moral guidance and opportunity. On the other be used for brainwashing, personal financial gain, or even the root of hatred and violence.

I guess that’s why I’m careful not to pull you to my “religion”. I don’t know that I even have one per-se.
But I also don’t mean to leave you with the impression that it’s ok just to choose the religious perspective that “floats your boat”.

That is not at all what Jesus did.
Jesus was very clear, and very “exclusive”. He was not “inclusive” of other ways to come “to The Father”.
Jesus said in no uncertain terms that the ONLY way to the Father was through Him, and His shed blood.

I have seen that the minute differences taught by man-made religions are brought in by Gods adversary to distract from what Christ Himself clearly taught, and you can read for yourself. Like whether or not Hell is a real place.
“Religions” will tend to tell you many different variants of if there is a hell and what it will or won’t be like.
And you could go through different “religions” just as you would at the food court at the Mall, and pick the flavor of religion that tastes and feels good to you.

God’s adversary would love for you to pick a religion that doesn’t offend your sensibilities, and the snake will provide several for you to choose from.

But according to the Bible, that you read, there is only one “Truth”.
And Jesus claimed He was it.
Jesus claimed “ I am the way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.”
And He went on willingly to crucifixion, claiming to be God.

Now that would make Jesus, The Lord, a lair, or a complete lunatic.

There is no in-between “truth” that Jesus left us to believe.

If you start out by reading all the words in red, the ones that Jesus spoke, and you ask Him, He will lead you to the “truth” you are seeking.

It really doesn’t matter what Clyde and I think about anything.

It maters what Jesus said.




Modified By steve mathews on 8/1/2010 at 12:33 PM

(James 4:13-14) Come, now, YOU who say: “Today or tomorrow we will journey to this city and will spend a year there, and we will engage in business and make profits,” 14 whereas YOU do not know what YOUR life will be tomorrow. For YOU are a mist appearing for a little while and then disappearing.

This is what we frends do on FB.From a female minister.
True worshippers are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.(1 John 3:16) TRUSTS GOD’S WORD: Instead of teaching “tradition” and “comman...ds of men as doctrines,” true religion bases its doctrine on God’s Word, the Bible. (Matthew 15:6-9) Why? Because “all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight.”(2 Timothy 3:16) STRENGTHENS FAMILIES AND UPHOLDS HIGH MORAL STANDARDS: True religion trains husbands to ‘love their wives as their own bodies,’ helps wives to develop ‘deep respect for their husbands,’ and teaches children to ‘be obedient to their parents.’ (Ephesians 5:28, 33; 6:1) In addition, those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals.(1 Timothy 3:1-10)

Clyde,

Sometimes I'm not sure what your point is when you paste a verse w/o an personal explanation or context. In your own words, what were you trying to say by posting James 4:13 - 14?

No after life Bill,James one of many!

" For YOU are a mist appearing for a little while and then disappearing."
I know you know what a mist is,and what disappearing mean's "Poof! a person is gone except memories of loved ones and more importantly Jehovahs memory,at least I hope so in my case if I should die,but as I beleave all the Bible I hope never to die,wanting to be in the group "Millions now living will never die" Revelation 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.After What things? The "great tribulation" Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:21,being the complete distruction of FALSE religion,and all governments on earth,no room for any government than Gods Kingdom government.Armageddon is not some nucular war,its Jehovah's war.Thats what the August 2010 Watchtower(Is the end near) deals with.[many people fear that a nuclear war or climate change will ruin or destroy the earth.Doo you think that will ever happen? Revelation 11:) But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” the 2010 Awake is (Jehovah"s Witnesses Who are they?)Really the only ones talking about "Good News" Matthew 24:And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.So Bill,millions now living will never die,and really billions who have lived will never die in a sence,seing they are in Jehovah's memory and will be brought back to earth in a paradise new earth.Revelation 21:With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” You dont have anything against the earth do you? I abosutaly have no desire to go to heaven,im a man and earth is where I belong,and where Jehovah put man and woman.My God would be cruel to me causing me to be born on a beautifull earth and wanting me to die and go somewhere I dont want to go.
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 8/2/2010 at 5:59 AM

Armageddon!
“The War to End All Wars”
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20080401/article_01.htm
Armageddon—God’s War to End All Wars
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20080401/article_02.htm
ARMAGEDDON
A Catastrophic End?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_01.htm
ARMAGEDDON
A Happy Beginning
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_02.htm

Steve,
You last wrote "And He went on willingly to crucifixion, claiming to be God."
Would you expand on this a bit for me?

Sure Mike,
To start, in John 5 we see it was on the Sabbath when Jesus went up to Jerusalem and healed a blind man at the pool of Bethesda.
And he told the man; "See you have been made well. Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you."

The Jews knew that only God could heal, and forgive sin.

“And he said, Thy sins are forgiven.” Luk 7:48
“For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” John 5:18 (NASB)

Rather than deny what they were charging He went on to explain how He was equal to God.


“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24 (NASB)

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58 (NASB)

The Jews knew that the “I Am” was God from Father Abraham.
And Jesus claimed “no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6 (NASB)



Mar 14:55 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any.

Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree.


Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him:


"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.'

Yet even then their testimony did not agree.

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked.


"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Mar 14:55-64


And they demanded His crucifixion from the Romans.


I hope I understand what your asking, and hope this helps.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=14&v=1&t=NIV





Modified By steve mathews on 8/2/2010 at 6:48 PM

Yes Steve,
Thats what I wanted to see. Thanks for putting this together for me to read.

I've not read the bible much. I like your advice of reading the bible yourself to help form ones own opinion. I think a "bible study" of some type I might enjoy. Not biased towards only one religions view though.

I drew away from the catholic church in my teens. I found the mass very mundane and could barely sit thru them.The Bakers and other obnoxious faith healers turned me off. Similar to Bill (this is a first) I also try to believe that God is just and your acceptance should be determined more so by what is in your heart than your ability of faith.

My mother who was very spiritual was also of great faith. She was a pastoral counselor who's work centered around people who's lives were near the end. She did not come across as the preaching type. Instead she possessed a calmness similar to Mother Theresa's style. She helped so many to find peace, help overcome their fears, and their families with grief. She was a hospice volunteer for to many years. She had confided to me that her work at times was difficult. She received her masters degree at about the age of 60. She wrote many papers and articles on subjects of spirituality, grief and healing.

I don't know why I tell you all this. I do know that my mother is the closest thing to a saint that I will ever know. I have often joked that my mother has so much pull that she will help me get to heaven when it is my turn.

Thanks again Steve and you too Bill and Billy.

The Bible does not specifically name all the unclean and disgusting habits and practices that are prevalent today, but it does contain principles that enable us to perceive how Jehovah must feel about such things.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.(Are there any habbits that this principle alone covers?)

Billy,

I do not fear God. I am human and I have sinned. He knows my history, my heart and my intentions.

? mike
Modified By Clyde Fleming on 8/3/2010 at 7:02 PM

Mike,
Thanks for sharing that with us.
Your mom sounds like a very sweet and special person who knew how to be a representative of God to others in a very difficult time.
It takes a very strong and special person to deal with such as she did on a daily basis.
I’m sure she must have had a very strong relationship with God.


The bible says in Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.”

God made a promise to your mom.
And it seems He is in the process of making good on that promise.

None of us are perfect parents.
I know I made some bad decisions and good decisions with my kids.
But your right that God sees the heart, and He honored the effort I made with my kids, and that your mother made in your upbringing.

He calls for us He has chosen as we walk along life, at a time when we have an ear to hear.
We just have to not allow the distractions of life divert our attention away from His attempt to reconnect when it happens.

You said you might enjoy some type of "bible study", but one not biased towards only one religions view.
I would suggest if you haven’t already you might start by reading what your mother wrote, as it sounds she had a lot of wisdom that should be passed to you.

Over time as you add to that reading and study, I have some favorite reading and audio you might check out.

As you read just ask God to reveal Himself to you, and guide you.
There are many sources I could recommend if your interested, and depending what your interested in.

Looking at the Bible from a scientific perspective my favorite is Chuck Missler.
One you link would like is ;
http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP041/
All of these are amazing;
http://www.khouse.org/6640_cat/technical/

Probably the best communicator of the Bible from a general everyday life application standpoint I have ever heard is Robert Morris.
Pick any topic by Robert that sounds interesting to you from this list going back to 2001 and you will enjoy. http://www.gatewaypeople.com/index.php?action=res_sermon_archive&m=Main

If you are interested in a deep philosophical analysis of life from a Biblical perspective I would suggest Ravi Zacharias.



http://rzim.org/resources/watch.aspx#whythebible

Phil and Bill shure are right,lots of religions to pick from.Everyone has one thing in common,everything they know has been taught and learned.
I pray im the man Kimihiro Nakata is/was.
" Kimihiro Nakata, a violent death-row prisoner who had been paid to kill two men, requested a Bible study, and it was Percy who studied with him. As a result, Kimihiro completely abandoned his “old personality.” He was baptized in the prison, and Percy described him as “one of the most zealous Kingdom publishers I have known.”

Kimihiro had requested Percy’s presence at his execution that morning. Percy complied. In the execution yard, they conversed briefly, and at the last, they sang a Kingdom song together. Kimihiro said to Percy: “Why are you shivering, Percy? I am the one who should be nervous.” Before he was hanged, his last words were: “Today I feel strongly confident in Jehovah and in the ransom sacrifice and the resurrection hope. For a little while I will sleep, and if it be Jehovah’s will, I shall meet you all in the Paradise.”

Thank you Steve for the very kind words.
My mothers work sounds like the right place to start.
Always appreciate your good insight and help.

You are a gift from God to your parents.Sound like ou are.Psalm 127:3 Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah;
The fruitage of the belly is a reward.
 4 Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man,So are the sons of youth.
 5 Happy is the able-bodied man that has filled his quiver with them.
They will not be ashamed,
For they will speak with enemies in the gate.(Thats the best I cn do for you today mike (<:]